citynoise.org
What is Citynoise?..... Today's posts..... This month..... Recent Comments..... Contact..... RSS Feed.... Post your own Citynoise.....
http://www.citynoise.org  

browse by city

New York, NY (772)
Brooklyn, NY (766)
Toronto, ON (743)
Montreal, QC (389)
London, UK (296)
complete city list

popular articles

Water Falls on the City
from: CartLegger
Governors Island: The Death of Motel 8
from: CartLegger
Downtown MinneApple
from: Tyfoid Kid
Commerce
from: luna park
A Sign of Past Times?
from: CartLegger
what's hot this month?

recent articles

Positively 4th St.
from: Tyfoid Kid
Random Street Art Throughout Philly
from: serlingrod
Irony Transcends the Hip
from: serlingrod
Truckin'
from: luna park
Watering the Lawn
from: joey
Storefront Beauty
from: serlingrod
Black Hebrew Israelites
from: serlingrod
Left Leaning
from: luna park
MAVone
from: Peter
Watermelon Man
from: Cartlegger
read all today's articles

browse by author

Peter (784)
joey (275)
EvilGentleman (265)
hool (246)
jack (232)
complete author list

hot topics

graffiti
Justo Gallego
JA One
graf trux
sane smith
wheat paste
nyc
sixy
harlem
banksy
throw up graffiti
new york
brooklyn
nyc graffiti
dr. sex

Comments about vel

There are 100 comments about "vel"

hope: Where are his three children now? Jackie, Kenny and Rvela?...

in response to: Rufus Rockhead Street by EvilGentleman

eyeofodin: Iron Maiden was my addiction back in grade, middle and high school. Nothing was so exciting as hearing and feeling the Somewhere In Time album infiltrate every pore of my body and make......

in response to: Heavy MTL 2008: Iron Maiden by EvilGentleman

Some Guy Ya: Hi folks. I got sick of my bikes being taken back in 92. So since then, I've been keeping it inside. I still have my 1992 Ironhorse. Lovely bike. For the first......

in response to: A Picture of My Bike by Walks now

Elijah: And with his chariots, like a whirlwind.............. That's how Christ is coming back. In the so called mystical thing that you see on the X-Files every Friday night. All the so called U.F.O 's. These......

in response to: Black Hebrew Israelites by serlingrod

Peter: This is a tale explaining the manner in which my way of life was rotated along a Y axis until it reached a position roughly 180 degrees from that which it started If I could......

in response to: Cabrini Green [whats left of it] by corsakti

Peter: your photos are really nice... you should consider sending the {payphone} flick to 2600 ([[http://www.2600.com/phones]]). i like how the photos are scans of prints with nice white borders. its getting harder and harder to find developers......

in response to: Panama City, a Little Darker by artisan

Edward LAMB: I am very familiar with this tunnel having personally "discovered" the place way back in 1969... The following, if you please, is an excerpt from my own story : I had, one day, roaming through Riverside Drive......

in response to: The Freedom Tunnel by Peter

Who Cares for Kensingtion: OG FROM GCC, Good piece! Take it back 1 block at a time. All in a given block may not participate, but those that do should stick together and clean it from end to end...and......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

john turvey: well done to diane dole. her and alf dole have the right to claim there pearly king status. i can vouch for that because george dole my grandfather was indeed the pearly king of st......

in response to: The Pearly Kings and Queens by Jamie

cyni: the last photo is awesome -- i've seen this building from the outside (quite remarkable in its shape) but never ventured in. to see the city outside the square glass...marvellous capure. ...

in response to: Dallas City Hall by dfwtiger

Hapless: See, I wouldn't know about the debate, I'm relatively new here...in fact, this was, I think, the first topic I've created. I have heard about the dual nature element that you've mentioned before...interesting how......

in response to: The Black Cat: Poetry in Spanish Graffiti by The Hapless Hobo

anon: is the intersection of montrose ave and humboldt street relatively safe? im coming from the perspective of an inexperienced suburban white male, so im not sure what "safe" even means. ...

in response to: My House in Bushwick by matthew

little ukraine: always the traffic, always the lights.. joe played the cello through those darlinghurst nights. looks lovely....

in response to: Darlinghurst by Ross

Chris : First of all Toronto is hated on by all Canadians outside of the Golden Horse Shoe. One of the main reasons why is,....... the Toronto Maple Losers!!!!!!!!. It's a hockey country and the leafs used......

in response to: The Top 15 Skylines in the World by Luigi Di Serio

Janey: For all the people doing reports on Norwegian food: I personally like Lefsa alot but thats just me. I don't live in Norway but my family is Norwegian and we have lefsa every Christmas (we......

in response to: Typical Norwegian Food by Rune-Willem

Natalie Waterworth (Brophy): Gary sparkes, re the maypole there was a shop that sold electrical goods next to the shoe shop and laundrette on the other side. Over near lesters newsagents there was a haidressers. The supermarket was......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

gotout: i moved away more than 20yrs ago be honest hutch is boring. i come home at least once a year to visit family. things are getting pretty ratty there. the neighborhoods need to do like......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 10 by Scott Sargent

surviving: hutch is safer than a lot of big cities, and the commute to work is not so bad,(hour wait traffic jams etc.) I have traveled and it"s not fun to set ,......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 10 by Scott Sargent

Who Cares for Kensington: River Otters complains about the mass exodus from the city and that those folks should have stayed and are now paying the price for leaving with long commutes and 4 buck gas. I left Philly......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

Renee: Just stumbled on this site. I was born in an apt Bushwick and Gates. We later owned a house on Linden just off Bushwick during the Depression. Went to what was then......

in response to: A Rare Ruin in Bushwick by upfromflames

Sheila Hilton: Sheila V, You're most likely correct about Hapgoods; I know they did live on our right hand side, so no.20 is probably right. I don't remember a Christine Iddon - only Elaine. Was Christine an older......

in response to: Irlam, Manchester by Andrew Smith

Maureen: Hello Anne I remember Mrs Iddon, she left Kendals and came to work at the Margarine works, she worked with me from time to time. Elaine Iddon was Edith Iddon's daughter, Ediths husband was......

in response to: Irlam, Manchester by Andrew Smith

Sheila Vaudrey: Hello Sheila H and Norma, I am quite sure that Hapgoods lived at no 20 unless they moved house, like I said I went to school with Arnold and he always lived at No 20......

in response to: Irlam, Manchester by Andrew Smith

Norma Bannon (nee Bolton): Hi Sheila and rrrrr(?) We lived at no 20 Harewood Rd from 1983-1995. Mr & Mrs Iddon lived opposite, such a lovely couple. Jim passed away many years ago, but Edie still sent us......

in response to: Irlam, Manchester by Andrew Smith

anon (bas3-toronto01-1177783038.dsl.bell.ca): just traveled from toronto to edmonton, long ,long journey!!! ...

in response to: Greyhound Stops Along the 17 by walkhere

Me: Boy oh boy!!!Was Hutch boring this weekend???The answer is absolutely,positively,most certainly not!!!!!The Grand Prairie held the Warfare X ultimate fights,and talk about excitement and a fun time!!!!Hutch was awesome and the fighters incredible!!!!The Hutch Fest......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 10 by Scott Sargent

serlingrod: moral of the story, everyone - deindustrialization ruined these neighbors that so many people who grew up in them loved so much. hard economic times and social/political injustice has transformed them into hotbeds for illegal......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

Cecilia Midiri: Ok Joseph I'm sorry about your father, that he went through that. He didn't move from here after that, that speaks volumes. My mother and I were in a similar situation, we found our 84......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

Peter: if i had a dollar for every time ive heard someone from a hard/bad/depressed/rebuilding neighborhood comment something like ##"_______ is really that bad and has been for years"##... [[76:cabrini green]], [[1727:henry horner]], [[4368:hutchinson]], [[646:bushwick]], to......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

serlingrod: Thanks Peter. It's nice to have a friend back you up. I just marvel at the stubborness of it though.....I mean, "keep on painting" ... Really? I've made it perfectly clear I'm not an artist..I'm......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

surviving: Tex ......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 10 by Scott Sargent

serlingrod: In response to the last post - first of, let me say that I live in Philadelphia and have worked as a community organizer in Kensington for the past several years. I mention this to......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

Anne - Ontario: Hi John, So it is you. Hope you are well and are enjoying retirement by now. We are both retired and travel as much as possible. Our daughters live out of town and also out......

in response to: Irlam, Manchester by Andrew Smith

Susan Taylor (nee O'Reilly): Hi Annon I am one of the O'Reilly's from Caroline Street. Very respectable family! You will see an earlier entry about my dad Tom, he had an allotment on Tramway Road. Both he and my......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Peter: i know, right? hahahaha. go go mickey d's... im sure they thought the pressure-washer would blow it right off, but anyone uninformed enough to use one of those on wood deserves to learn the hard......

in response to: McBuffin by EvilGentleman

jack: can't get overexcited over a plastic doll, it's the real dolls that i look at ONLY and keep my mind on my wife and family, but a lot of men my age enjoy looking at......

in response to: While You Are Reading This.... by David G.

Gary Sparkes: i am drawing a overhead plan of the maypole(irlam shopping centre)so far i have the TSB, harrys chippy(lovely),hesketh amd claire(butcher),gemtime??,electronic shop???,bingo place???,supermarket???,norman lownes grocer with mrs egan knittware,optician???,newsagents (stuart???),cant remember any more,does anyone have any......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

EvilGentleman: To me, it would depend heavily on the particulars of the location where the photo was shot. If the man in the photo was in the midst of a well-frequented public space, then public domain......

in response to: A Homeless Man Sleeping with His Most Cherished Possession by Leroy Allen Skalstad

Debra Sumner nee Warburton: Hi found your article by accident i went to moorfield school, and Irlam High and lived on Kestrel drive until 1983 i then moved onto Harewood road, i remember Brian Bagshaw being in my class......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Hutchinson Escapee: I'm not a religious person, but if there is a town in this county that truly is cursed, it's hutchinson, KS. The corruption at the judicial level is staggering. The forces that be actually got the......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 10 by Scott Sargent

Anne Priestley (nee Rigby): Hi Debbie Good to hear from someone who went to the same school I did, you must be about three years younger than me though. My first teacher there was a Miss Peters. Do you......

in response to: Irlam, Manchester by Andrew Smith

Alice: My mom was born and grew up on Greene Avenue. We lived there in the 50s, I went to St. Barbara's elementary, (played fife!). Moved away in 1960 after finishing 5th grade. My Dad went......

in response to: Bushwick 77: The Casusos of Harman St. by upfromflames

Kathy: KENSINGTON WAS THE GREATEST NEIGHBORHOOD TO LIVE IN. I WAS RAISED THERE AND IT WAS GREAT UNTIL THE EIGHTIES..THEN IT JUST WENT DOWNHILL!! WE WERE A POOR FAMILY GROWING UP, BUT WE DIDN'T HURT, KILL......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

EinsteinsBrother: What a fabulous post. ANd what a marvelous place. It is so surreal it is almost dream-like. Is it like that in person???.. Maybe someday I'll be there..........

in response to: The Freedom Tunnel by Peter

Me: Re to oevre If I had a million,I would travel and visit some really cool places,then I would settle down while I was still young and buy a really nice home here in good ole Hutch,and......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 10 by Scott Sargent

정이 김: American want to send beef infected with mad cow — so dangerous that the Americans refusing to eat it — to my country! Myung-bak Lee sign a deal with America to lift a ban of......

in response to: Anti-US Beef/2MB Protests by chiamattt

Shayleia: Thank you for sharing such a hauntingly beautiful journey. I have been in or through New York City a few times and I have always marvelled at the degrees of sheer talent that is......

in response to: The Freedom Tunnel by Peter

Kevin_in_the_Uk: My oh my. There you are talking about the word c**t and with reference to it being a socially acceptable word in the Uk. Trust me my friends, although it might be......

in response to: Passing Airliner Triggers Wonder in Arctic by EvilGentleman

Sophie: Awww He's Lovely!!...

in response to: Dancing Fred by clarky

Andrew Smith: A few characters in the pubs on the edge of town, but I wouldn't call it rough (though I am from a Salford overspill town). The walled town itself and the setting is lovely - used......

in response to: Berwick-upon-Tweed. by Andrew Smith

James cashan: Hello jon B. Malcom Kennedy is related to my dad through marriage of his mum to Ken connor (pics of Train), I lived and dad still lives across road from Pete n......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Swanson from SD: Some of you people have not traveled the country....Belleville is a perfectly average small town in this century, fighting to stay alive.. According to some, everything is better and greener somewhere else, it's not, just......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 3 by Scott Sargent

Jamie: citynoise.org development blog (of sorts) [[http://jamazon.co.uk/tags/citynoise.org]]...

in response to: User Survey 2007 by Jamie

jack: sara is a lovely girl....

in response to: Sarah Jessica Parker Loses Her Head by The Decapitator

EvilGentleman: I figured as much. I would not have guessed WDW, but I was pretty sure it was a mural outside the San Francisco area, and somewhere that you travel, which narrowed it down to the......

in response to: Where in the World is Jack? by jack

Joanne Amorello Minor: Hello Sheila, Yes thats right about my nanna and grandad and mum, my nan was Jessie and my grandad was Bob, my nan was an auxillary nurse at Bridgewater Hospital and my grandad an ambulance......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

kiwi: Wow. Those are lovely. My fave would have to be the one with the trunk, though. The contrast between bright mural and dark remnant is great....

in response to: The Freedom Tunnel by Peter

IBM: Lived in St Laurent 1980-88. Just east of Decarie on Cote Vertu in fact. Probably ate more Decarie Steamies than was good for me and I still have the occasional Jones for a couple. You'd......

in response to: Decarie Hot Dogs by CE

B Street: I grew up across the street from one of the few working factories in Kensington starting in 1965 until I was forced out 22 years later. While I too have fond memories of wall ball, swimming......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

Olwen Gillet (nee Dawson): Wow, I have just found this site and have had a good read ending up with smarting eyes, but what a joy it is to read of peoples' memories of Irlam/Cadishead, mainly Cadishead where I......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Joe : Bill, I suspected that your name was Franklin, but thought that you may be June's brother. Obviously I did not know June's family real well, but I did know her and she was considered the most......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

Re: Wow,this brings back memories.I lived in Kensington from the time I was born untill 2004.First in the area of Frankford & Coral then Silver St Between Emerald & Frankford Ave.I traveled all over the area......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

joey: i think we turned off of canal rd into a driveway leading to some gravel business truck loading zone. i almost felt like a trucker in the kia suv rental car we were driving. you......

in response to: Cleveland in May by joey

anon (itsc083.itsnpt.com): East Orange is only an address. It's the people who are the products of young parents who have little education and poor parenting skills that have made the places in East Orange unsafe. ......

in response to: The Projects of East Orange by Peter

anon (nat2.northshorelij.com): Hi I grew up in Bushwick, along with most of my cousins. I went to Fourteen Holy Martyrs School- graduated in 1964. I have wonderful memories of my growing up years in a culturaly......

in response to: A Rare Ruin in Bushwick by upfromflames

Ty: Coney Island is lovely. ...

in response to: Coney Island Low by Peter

colavitos ghost: joey (and other people who might be interested, if you notice, the roadway all along euclid from public square to university circle has been significantly enhanced in the past 4 years. it's all a......

in response to: Posturban by joey

Adam Enright: There is No Game like the Good Ol' Montreal Hockey Riot! A city whose hockey passions create a constant hunger for battling peace and the status quo. [[http://www.progressivewebdesign.ca/hockeyriots.html]] by Adam Enright I was thrilled to read about......

in response to: Hockey Victory Riot by EvilGentleman

zagg: Fact: the summer that I was 16 I was allowed to choose where my parents and I went for a family vacation. San Francisco had been quickly shot down (despite the POWERPOINT PRESENTATION that......

in response to: Cleveland in May by joey

upfromflames: And 70% dropout rate! I am a high school teacher--and you sir, are quoting some racist drivel from a time long past. Perhaps it suits your needs, but it does not suit the reality at hand.......

in response to: My House in Bushwick by matthew

Cathy Tarkowski Grant: Belleville Kansas is full of potential with many creative artisans and entrepreneurs. It also is ripe for development with the Republican River running nearby, beautiful old 81 highway running north of town with it's......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 3 by Scott Sargent

.....: traveled all the way up there and forgot my fuckin I.D. hahahahha...

in response to: Scrap Yard nyc GRAFFITI STORE by art views

James cashan: RE: Rob Walls R Tynan, Totally agree with your strong sentiments, The other night me and my partner Zak (zakia Cassim) Were having our tea at the boathouse , they have built a decking area at......

in response to: Irlam, Manchester by Andrew Smith

Helen: My cat,who was a lovely white on her tummy and paws is now a sludgy black due to anti-climb paint;and so is our cream carpet and white bath!It wont wash off the cat and I......

in response to: Anti-Climb Paint by kobe

Peter: yeah, i liked chicago. i plan on going back more in the future; its a cheap flight from nyc. i wonder if someone living in the urban northeast would enjoy living in illinois after the......

in response to: The El by serlingrod

Bonnie: I remember Pressers Deli. My mother bought all of her meats there. I remember Mrs Presser made the best fish cakes in the world. We had them every Friday! She would......

in response to: Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004 by CE

zagg: no gut bomb; well not for days later: gut-anything is delayed majorly when travelling for some reason ; / ...

in response to: The First 60 Minutes of My Return by zagg

Peter: nice outing! im a tad jealous of your travels, i must admit... the weather there looks springlike! each of these is classic hool, euro-style. the first one is my favorite, of course. good on so many......

in response to: May 19 2008 Barcelona by hool

Peter: hmm, i guess i got thrown by the part where you said ##"I know that cant be a Coupe piece in BK##. no one ever said he was from brooklyn. this is a relatively famous......

in response to: Graf on the Tracks, Pt. 3 by Peter

Jamie: Mural schemes suck more often than not, but most of these are pretty good. Nice photos. Thanks for sharing them @Picky Lurker: I wouldn't like to speculate on any "view fixing". Sometimes posts can accrue lots......

in response to: The Murals of Leslieville by Elicar

Peter: ive gotten in the habit of just carrying mine with me in my pocket every time i leave the house. wallet, keys, phone, camera all go into my pockets on the way out. it helps......

in response to: No Parking by Peter

Cityplanner: Top 5 Canadian cities: Toronto: Toronto has so many skysrapers and so many of them that you will break you're neck trying to look up at them. Montreal: Montreal is probably the nicest in all of Canada......

in response to: The Top 15 Skylines in the World by Luigi Di Serio

Passerby: I live in HP and you can label me as a yuppie, or whatever stereotype you want. I can tell you this: I don't like the litter all over my lawn. I don't enjoy the......

in response to: Humbodlt Park: Don\'t leave but make it better by Delma

Passerby: With the history linked to that hotel there is no stopping the wrecking ball. To quote the article in the Suntimes: Community development director of Lincolnwood Timothy Clarke "Asked when he'd like the hotel torn......

in response to: Hotel Detective by procyon

Sheila Preston: Hi to Di, Pearly Princess of St Pancras - I was so saddened to read all these comments when I came across this webpage. I had such a great day with you, your Dad......

in response to: The Pearly Kings and Queens by Jamie

chiamattt: jack, its funny you should say "in an area of possible war" because NO ONE here thinks the DPRK will invade the ROK. It's just not gonna happen. Also, there are NO real guns here.......

in response to: Cosplay by chiamattt

terry hindley: "Hung around the Benny centre and pool quite a bit during the late 70's early 80's. As long as you didn't look for trouble you generally wouldn't find trouble. Anyone remeber the Benny Gang? or......

in response to: The Benny Farm Condemned Housing Projects by EvilGentleman

Muffin: Very lovely. Though, they don't show much of the bustle of people and brigthly lighten signs that appear at night....

in response to: tokyo by night by jeeff

Matt Parde: I was born and raised in Belleville, lived there for almost 30 years. I always had something to do and had a lot of fun. It's nice to know who lives in your......

in response to: America\'s Most Boring Towns: 3 by Scott Sargent

treee: do some hiking around where the old bridge ranch is, see troy regas has had teh ranch and licence and property in his name a few years ago ( cuz he owns......

in response to: Hell\'s Angels - New York City by sine

John Dereszewski: I also don't understand this. Bushwick Houses is a large - and rather oppressive - complex situated at Flushing and Bushwick Aves. on the Williamsburg side of the border. As Adam notes, these are pictures......

in response to: Bushwick Houses by Peter

joey: i'm headed to cleveland next week. so watch out for more posts of cleveland. coming soon....

in response to: Going Downtown to See the Decorations by procyon

joey: Lighting & Electrical Institute 1975 Noble Road Nela Park Cleveland, Ohio 44112-6300 1-800-255-1200...

in response to: Going Downtown to See the Decorations by procyon

James cashan: hi norma , yes i remember brian,may know your brothers by face,we would get anywhere from 1 to 2 hundred people down at tarzan bridge,crossie was a regular face at our shin digs and would often......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Rob Tynan: Hi Jon, Couldn't agree more regarding development.....I don't know that pond, but there were other ponds near the old slag heap bordering Hollins Green. We used to get frogs, newts, stickbacks etc from there....

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Jon Burgess: My Gran lived on Atherton Lane for 50+ years, I always remember the massive bonfires on the bammer throughout the 70's / early 80's. Down the bammer was a newt pond with protected species of......

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Rob Tynan: Hi Ron, Here are the pictures I took of Atherton Lane and Anglers Close (Whitefield Street) today. [[img:27368]] [[img:27369]] As you can see Atherton Lane is more or less original and Whitfield Street has been redeveloped. Rob...

in response to: These Things No Longer Exist by Andrew Smith

Mitch: Just an FYI: Ben's is safe for at least another 2 weeks, there was a newspaper article saying the public has until May 21st to fight the demolition decision. If no one challenges it (or......

in response to: Ben\'s Deli by EvilGentleman

marlene: Winnipeg definitely deserves to be on the list. Its skyline is distinctive--especially in the dead of winter when its really cold and ice fog clouds are in the air and the sky is clear......

in response to: The Top 10 Canadian Skylines by CE

RandomName: MAn I found this page searching for too old skateboarding like a lot of you. I hate this idea to pieces. in the time it takes you to turn 15 is the same time it......

in response to: I\'m Too Old for Skateboarding by JJ

search citynoise.org

recent discussions

Random Street Art Throughout Philly
from: serlingrod
The Top 15 Skylines in the World
from: Luigi Di Serio
Graffiti Canvas
from: Metro
Metro Fuzz One
from: Metro
Out to Bomb
from: Metro
The Freedom Tunnel
from: Peter
Raccoons, Cute or Dangerous?
from: Elicar
Paterson Factory - May 2002
from: adam
Kensington, Philadelphia - July 2004
from: CE
JA: A True NYC King
from: Peter

from the archives

Roadside Stand


apparently The State has been around bugging this guy about charging sales tax on his flowers, so he's not taking any chances.

Roadside Stand

recently viewed

Worcester Skyline from Queen Street
from: hifilofi
Peterborough Parkour
from: PumaBoy
Mr & Mrs Chimneystack
from: kathy archbold
Ten East
from: ian
Parkour Trip to Lisses
from: Ben Nuttall
Laconic
from: joey
Positively 4th St.
from: Tyfoid Kid
Camera Phone - Nov. 06
from: ksedge
Brixton
from: duplo one
Don Justo's Self Built Cathedral - Part 2
from: Reiner Wandler