Θεσσαλονίκη

ksedge: 10th Sep 2006 - 05:32 GMT

i'd like to see a Frederick the Pirate travel series...

EvilGentleman: 10th Sep 2006 - 09:55 GMT

That second shot looks pro. Better than many you see in travel magazines or restaurant ads. Awesome lighting.

zagg: 10th Sep 2006 - 12:56 GMT

ksedge: there will be, fact next Greece photos I post will have him more. Fact being further, this was Frederick's first international flight but he will go on more. One morning as I looked at my plastic pirate bath toy set, I said to myself that wherever I go on the world, further - he'll be in random shots.

EG: Thank you, maybe I should find out what restaurant it was and sell it to them, sort of reinburse me for the not-that-great 16 euro meal they fed us.

elena: 30th Sep 2006 - 08:47 GMT

thessalonikh is the most beautiful city in whole world.

greek: 13th Oct 2006 - 15:10 GMT

there isn't macedonia as a country. it's name is f.y.r.o.m.. almost whole greece's north area is called macedonia and now f.y.r.o.m.'s guys want to take the name. that's why we argue. they want it because they want tourists. u know with fake places like "that's were alexander the great was borned" and other. but if u don't live in balkans u can't know what is really going on. greece is really beutiful. bb

EvilGentleman: 13th Oct 2006 - 16:46 GMT

Macedonia has always extended beyond what is currently called Greece, so I do not see how Greece alone is permitted the usage of the name. It is obvious the Greek people are most closely connected to the history of ancient Macedonia, whereas the Slavic peoples of Macedonia really only started appearing in the area 1400 years ago, but the point is, there are areas of Greece, (FYRO) Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania that have always been part of Macedonia, so why should some be denied the usage of the name, while others can claim ownership of the name?

Perhaps a compromise is in order. Maybe the FYRO Macedonia can be called Slavic Macedonia or North Macedonia, thus retaining the usage of the only name they really have for their land, while still recognizing the fact that other Macedonias exist as well.

Here in Canada, the word Canada has shifted meaning over the years. Originally a Mohawk word, it was used by the French as a name for their colony in North America. When the British took over, they also used the name Canada. Today, many English-speaking people consider themselves to be Canadian, and neither the French nor the Mohawks object to the English adopting the word. Why can't the Greeks and the Slavs get along in the same way?

A final thought - Are the Olympic Mountains of Washington State using a name they have no right to use? Claiming absolute ownership of a name can get very complicated, and in Greece's case, such actions could also result in disputes with Turkey, Italy, Egypt, Bulgaria, etc. All those countries have Greek chapters in their history, as well as many other nations as well. A compromise would be the best solution.

jof: 12th Nov 2006 - 20:02 GMT

EvilGentleman -

I admire your suggestion of compromise.

I don't think Greeks or Slavic Macedonians are so much connected to the ancient Macedonians that it warrants such a dispute. What threat is there in a name? It's clearly about more than a name, in my opinion. But I also think that those issues are past, and not a threat anymore, and that some sort of decision is important.

As far as history, I don't think anyone will confuse Macedonia - which is the constitutional name, and recognized in many countries including my home country - with Greece. Lost tourists are not an issue. Macedonia - FYROM - has a lot to offer to tourists ... more in the spectacular nature than stolen history - but is not ready for a really substantial tourist industry, in terms of infrastructure.

Alexander The Thessalonikian: 4th Feb 2007 - 19:50 GMT

People from US shouldn't argue with the fact that a country with a glorious past like Greece is offended when a name that characterizes the most of the northern Greece and that has special meaning for us, for 4.500 years now is being stolen by a bunch of needy, hungry peasants who's only interest is to claim for themselves a past they don't deserve, just to surface out of obscurity. US citizens have no history (unless you call "history" the, less than 300 years time that the US exists) and no earthly borders with nations that are hostiles to them and no understanding of the importance of the situation (it's not just a name it's a national identity). You call yourselves "American Nation". Do you know what the true meaning of the word nation is? I won't teach you that. I WILL tell you though that you can NOT call nation a group of people that gathered 300 years ago from the fourth corners of the earth, that have different roots, motherly languages and customs and just happened to land on the same place.
The slavs are a friendly nation and they should be grateful that were taught reading, writing and obtained a culture mostly due to the contribution of Cyril and Methodius, two greek scholars (and saints that established the slavic alphabet and language) that laid the foundations for those that came down from the mountains and lived in caves, to be civilized. If there wasn't for Greece, these poverty-stricken people wouldnt have the chance now to be claiming for theirs, this vital part of our history. The outrageous think is that these people often present themselves with territorial claims and maps of their pityful country, extended, taking a big part of northern Greece and reaching out to Aegean sea. Dreams of greatness by those who'd be starving now if there wasn't for Greece. They just bite the hand that feeds them but that will someday turn back against them.

Somebody said, "People who don't have a past, don't deserve a future" and it seems that frightens some of the former yugoslavia citizens.
There is only ONE MACEDONIA and that is GREEK. The forgery of 4.500 years of history won't be tollerated. Get your own past and leave ours to their rightful owners.

Artemis The Greek: 5th Feb 2007 - 08:05 GMT

MACEDONIA belongs to Greece! This is where Alexander the Great was born, this is where his great history began.

No one can steal it from us.

EvilGentleman: 15th Mar 2007 - 05:59 GMT

I could have sworn the first conquest of Alexander was Greece. So the big question would then be, was it a civil war or an invasion? Considering the classical Greek habit of describing both Macedon and Epirus as barbarians who were not "true" Greeks, it raises quite a few questions about his ethnicity being Greek or not, Since his father was from Macedon and his mother was from Epirus.

But perhaps instead of arguing over whether or not the Macedonians were Greek, it might be more sensible to define exactly what "Greek" means, when referring to ancient peoples. Eastern Mediterranean history is infamous for its constant melting pot characteristics.

If you look at it in its purest sense, the concept of nationalism falls apart at the seams, since every society is derived from others that came before it, not to mention the influence of powerful neighbours, allies and conquerors.

The modern people of Greece have a long and proud history, but Ancient Greece is but one of the many ingredients that have combined to make the modern Greece. Macedonia is definitely part of the Greek heritage, but is an exclusive heritage or a shared one? The Greeks have pretty much given up arguing that Minoan was a Greek language, but I think due to numerous factors, the Macedonian debate will go on for millennia to come.

Look at the rest of Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean. The Irish are Celts with a touch of Scottish and English. The Scots are another Celtic group, also mixed with the English. The English are a mix of Angle, Saxon, Dane, Jute, Norman and Briton. The Normans were Vikings who first conquered, then started assimilating into northern France. The Britons now mostly live in northern France. This can go on indefinitely, with increasingly multiple layers of cultures being connected to the Irish as the timeframe recedes further into the past, to the point where it can be said that Macedonia is part of the Irish heritage. The same can be said for the Germans (who often claim a Roman connection), French (German, Latin, Gaulish), Lebanese (Phoenician, Syrian, Canaanite, Turk, Arab, Greek), Russians (Viking, Slavic, Hunnic, Scythian, Greek) and Spanish (Moorish, Latin, Native Iberian, Greek), as well as every other blasted country on the planet.

I am a Mohawk, and my ancestors had this historic practice of adopting prisoners into the nation, resulting in our original core ethnicity becoming obscured over the years. Only one thing can be said with better than average certainty. I am an African, the same as the rest of you. Or maybe Chinese or Indonesian? Wherever the heck the first humans came from, that is where my heritage lies.

Point is, this whole argument is insane.

Macedonians are #1: 19th Jul 2007 - 21:36 GMT

Alexander the Great is macedonian because he was born in anciant macedonia which now Greece, and just because the part of macedonia where alexander the great was born is now in greece does not mean he is greek.

FYRO Maedonia is the improper way of saying the country's name, it should be the Republic of Macedonia. Macedonia is a beautiful country and it should have the name that it should diserve. Macedonia is not the only country to be a former yugoslav republic so why should it have that name???

Macedonians are #1: 19th Jul 2007 - 21:48 GMT

I was watching Jeopardy (the smartest game shoe on television) and ine of the questions were " what ancient Macedonian conquered most of the known world " and the answer was " Alexander the Great "

If u search "macedonia" on wikipedia it will show the different regions of ancient macedonia but noe the country of macedonia of today, but if you search the "republic of macedonia" it will show the country that macedonia is today meaning the actual name of macedonia is the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA not FYRO Macedonia that the greeks put on us.

Alexander The Thessalonikian: 30th Jul 2007 - 09:33 GMT

An ethnic group is characterized by the common language, customs, religion, inscriptions, area of origin and ways of education and living. By that means all the area of todays Greece was inhabited by Greeks since the dawn of written history. Of course all the coast of Minor Asia (todays turkey and former IONIA which was Greek territory until 1922) was also Greek and all Sicily (also known as Magna Grecia or "Great Hellas" where they still today speak a very much alike ancient greek dialect with latin characteristics) and the southern coast of France (Nice is the ancient Greek city NIKEA) and the northern coast of Africa was full of Greek cities. Greece was the colonial power of the time something like Spain in the Middle Ages. Also the most of todays Albania, Skopia, and Bulgaria were part of Epirus Kingdom, Macedonian Kingdom and Thrace Kingdom. The proof is that they still find ancient artifacts, cities, tombs, and written proof in GREEK there. Nothing in slavic language though. How odd...!!!

2.500 years ago, things where a lot different in terms of ethnic unity. All Greece was divided in kingdom-cities with their areas of influence, which caused them to fight with each other pretty much. Bad names (such as Barbarians) and characterizations where often exchanged by every part just to bitter each other and civil war was something real common those days. But every time a common enemy (such as Persians) was threatening the borders of any Greek kingdom, all Greece was uniting against them.
So by means of common language, customs, educational system, art,religion etc, Macedonians were also a Greek race and important part of Greek civilization.
Todays habitants of what was the former northern part of Macedonia are not Greek at all. They are a mix of slavic ethnic groups that came in to the area not more than 1.000 years ago as slaves, mercenaries or immigrants. So you can NOT call yourselves Greeks (by calling yourselves Macedonians, is the same thing) only because you happen to inhabit an area which was part of Greece. You are not Macedonians because you have NOTHING in common with the ancient greek race of Macedonians. Your language is not Greek. Your customs are not Greek. Your blood is not Greek. Your forefathers where far from being called Greeks. So if you are not Greeks you CAN NOT BE MACEDONIANS too. It's just not logical.

Just yesterday (really) I once again visited the archaeological museum in Thessaloniki. I saw all the ancient artifacts, I read the greek scriptures carved on stone thousands of years ago that bear words like MACEDON and ELLIN (greek) and saw the golden artifacts with the sixteen ray SUN OF VERGINA, the symbol that you had shamelessly, at first, put on your flag and were forced to take it off. A symbol as Greek as the Parthenon in Athens. A symbol as ancient as Homers Epics. I guess that if you call yourselves Macedonians you could also read these macedonian inscriptions on the stone tablets. Am I right? Sure you can... You call yourselves Macedonians after all...

You just don't get it.
You have no right to claim the name of the landlord just because you stole his house.

But lets be frank. You don't have any real interest in civilization. You don't yearn to gain a place in history. Your only interest is your petty dreams of finding your way into the Aegean Sea and nothing more. And think that you will achieve this by being the obedient pawn of USA. But mind this. USA might be your friend now (as it was with Saddam Hussein and the Taliban in the 80's or Osama Bin Ladden in the early 90's) but as soon as they decide that they no longer need you, as soon as you'll become obsolete for them, they will COME TO BRING DEMOCRACY TO YOUR COUNTRY TOO....and we all really know what that truly means.

EvilGentleman: 31st Jul 2007 - 19:35 GMT

A different type of compromise may be in order. In order to appease the hard-core nationalism that demands that a country bear such a bizarre name as FYROM, we should just let FYORM stay as FYORM. This would appease the people from FTPOG (The Former Turkish Provinces of Greece) and maybe even FBROA (The Former Byzanthine Region Of Anatolia, also known as Turkey). Here in the FNFNLOBTUSOAACAPOCDBESGBFSNSRADAWATSROMTCTGMRATKOH (Former Native First Nations Lands Occupied By The United States Of America And Canada, After Periods Of Colonial Domination By England, Scotland, Great Britain, France, Spain, Netherlands, Sweden, Russia And Denmark, As Well As Their Successor Republics Of Mexico, Texas, California, The Green Mountain Republic And The Kingdom Of Hawai'i), we understand such concepts.

Toxteth Riot: 9th Aug 2007 - 12:56 GMT

Hi EvilGentleman.

I don't like the term FYROM. I am not a fan of the term Republic of Macedonia either.

The Graeco-Romans, that is, the indigenous population of the South-Easter Meditarranean, as a people share a common history, perspective, path of evolution, statehood, religion, culture.

The Graeco-Romans are one of the most influencial cultural groups in terms of civilisation and politics in Europe and the world (both Eastern and Western).

The Graeco-Romans are residing in the territory of the Macedonian region longer than any other ethnic group, and have thus acquired the customary right to refer to eachother or identify themselves inter alia as Macedonians, in the regional and cultural meaning of the word.

The use of the term Macedonian to describe a Slav is wrong and an ambiguous term concealing a paradox, for the following reasons:

1. The Graeco-Romans have been using this term whilst residing on a territory which they refer to as Macedonia, such territory including parts of the FYROM.

2. The Slavs have been referring to the territory of the FYROM as Vardarska, Kosovo, Serbia, Bulgaria, but NEVER as Macedonia.

3. The term Slav-Macedonian was introduced by Graeco-Romans in order to distinguish themselves from the Bulgarians that had settled in their lands during the times of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium), and is a term used by US, demonstrating the fact that we welcomed them amongst us, referring to them as Macedonians (albeit Slavic).

4. As the Balkans were partitioned along ethnic lines, Macedonia was "sliced" into three main ethnic chunks, following the defeat of the Bulgarian armies in Macedonia (Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian).

5. The people that claim to be "ethnic Macedonian" these days, are the descendants of those Bulgarians that attacked and fought against Greece and Serbia in 1913.

6. The fact that some (not all) of them pose as the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians, is evidence of bitterness resulting by their fear of and the loss of Macedonian status during the process of the Balkan partitioning of the 19th-20th century.

Therefore, when they say that "Greeks are stealing their history", they are simply trying to say that "Greeks took with them what was theirs, because the political circumstances in the Balkans had changed and unfortunately, the sharing had to come to an end".

That's life. Get on with it. Distinguish yourselves from the original Macedonians of Greece. And if you do that, then perhaps we'll be able to share our culture with you once again, this time within the European Union, as neighbouring Member States.

EvilGentleman: 10th Aug 2007 - 00:55 GMT

Well, how about we let the place that used to be in Yugoslavia call itself "The Slavic Republic of Northern Macedonia"? I dunno, just trying to state what I feel is right. The only Yugoslavians I ever met were from Serbia proper and Croatia. I am friends with a lot of Greeks, though.

But there is one Greek claim that I must dispel. MY people, the Mohawk Indians, native to an area centered on the Adirondack Mountains of upstate New York, are part of the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy.
In our earlier history, by most estimates somewhere between 1000 and 1600 AD, we became known as the Five Nations, and were the world's first true democracy. I say this not to take away from the great achievements of the Greek people of the Hellenic Age, but merely to state a fact.

It is true that most European powers consider ancient Greece to be the birthplace of democracy, and even the fact that the word "democracy" itself is Greek in origin would certainly seem to substantiate this claim. But the reality is that the reasonable thought process which was ancient Greek democracy was in fact only a baby step towards true democracy.

True democracy includes ALL people, not just land-owning, free-born males. Under such criteria, ancient Greece was nowhere close to democratic, since women, slaves, and poor men had no say in the governing of the state. Free land-owning men were in fact, an ogligarchic elite that subjugated the voiceless majority.

The principles that were brought forth in our constitution, known in the English-speaking world as "The Great Law of Peace", were in fact, the world's first equal and democratic laws. This is because we had no concept of land ownership, and our governments were composed of equal parts men and women.

Although it must be admitted that we did have state-controlled slaves in our earlier history, slavery was seldom, if ever, a permanent condition. In fact, some of our freed slaves went on to become leaders of our people. But one way or another, by the time of the American Revolution, we no longer had slaves, so ALL our people were free.

By contrast, the first nation in the eurocentric world to allow women a say in government was New Zealand, in 1893. But the Maori had restricted rights, so they were not fully democratic. And Greece did not allow women an equal voice until 1952.

The Great Law of Peace was also the basis which was used by Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin when they helped write the U.S. Constitution. This was later used again as the basis of the Charter of the United Nations. Karl Marx also saw much while studying the Great Law of Peace that he later used in the Communist Manifesto. Thus, regardless of whether you live in a Western-style democracy or a People's Democratic Republic, your freedom is based on the work of the Iroquois Confederacy.

But the legal systems of most governments today, with all the laws that protect our rights, are based on concepts that go back to Greco-Roman times. Thus, it can be rightfully be said that the founders of modern free government are The Iroquois Confederacy, ancient Rome, and ancient Greece.

And I will concede that incomplete as it may have been, the Greeks were the first organized society to use democratic concepts. Unless the Sumerians... well, that is another story, to be debated some other time.

Smile.